“If Jogaila Had Not Given Us Over to the Poles, We Would Now Be the United States of America”: shows what today’s Lithuanian elite thinks about Lithuanians. And how else would they think, having taken away from the Poles, the best lands in Vilnius, city, that the Russians presented to us?

 

The Union of Jogaila: The Treaty of Krėva in 1385 and the baptism of Lithuania saved the Grand Duchy of Lithuania from constant attacks by the Teutonic Order and political isolation, although later rapprochement with Poland led to long dynastic and political disputes. “Vilnius is ours, and we are Russians,” – the joke of the Smetona era still quietly rings in Lithuania. We are still full of frog dreams in our moor-covered pond:

 

“Summer will be full of historical events, such as the coronation of Mindaugas, the Battle of Grunwald, the Baltic Way and others. Most of these dates characterize a Lithuanian as a rebel, a freedom-seeking fighter, not giving in to oppression and able to survive even at the Laptev Sea.

 

What is Lithuanian identity? How do we differ from other nations in our search for identity? How do we maintain Lithuanian identity in a global world? The Deputy Chancellor of the Academy of Education of Vytautas Magnus University, historian Mindaugas Nefas (hereinafter – M. N.) and historian and politician Valdas Rakutis (hereinafter – V. R.) discussed this with a journalist from “Žinių radijas”.

 

– Valdas, what are the characteristics of Lithuanian identity?

 

– V. R.: We can find connecting threads that change little, but if we look at Lithuania in different periods of life, we would see a rather different picture and self-assessment. Whatever Lithuanians dominated at that time, that is how they were. And later another layer could dominate, which was not known in the previous era. Such actions are also reflected in our lives. Let us remember what Lithuanians looked like in 1991 and what they look like today. 35 years have passed, and the difference is significant.

 

– What is different now?

 

– V. R.: We found ourselves in a zone of other influences, we were rebels of the Soviet Union, but we were still influenced by that system. Now we are influenced by the liberal world and we want to become one ourselves. Our directions are changing, society is strongly influenced by liberal ideas and that influence leaves its mark. At the end of the 19th century, society was dark, Catholic, lived in the countryside and certainly did not dominate in the cities. And now we have our own state, which is influenced by international influence. This changes us a little. A serious question is whether we experience changes consciously or simply swim downstream. This can be understood during travels, comparing us with other nations. They change, but not as much as we do. We are experiencing a great change.

– Is courage inherent in Lithuanian identity?

 

– M. N.: I agree with Valdas that each era has its own characteristics. Naturally, the political system can have a very strong impact. Various transformations change social structures, the economy, and along with all political events, they form a certain identity.

 

At one event, I spoke about the fact that our society is a land society, but one person said that we are a nation of warriors. And I would like to say that Lithuanians were only warriors, but history does not provide such facts. The last long Soviet occupation has greatly changed our relations and perspectives. Every era has certain aspects, and the search for one slogan or another, attempts to make sense of the statement about Lithuania as a state are marketing matters. In my opinion, they have no greater meaning.

 

– What would happen if we took away Mindaugas’ or Vytautas’ Lithuania? Once we were big, and now we are the smallest. Belarusians, Poles and Ukrainians are bigger. What image would it have then?

 

– M. N.: In my opinion, deep down in our subconscious we feel an inferiority complex and want to push everything back. That is why we write in tourist books for foreigners that Vilnius Old Town is one of the oldest in Eastern Europe, that Lithuania lights the tallest Christmas tree every year and we add certain things everywhere. This is not bad, but we want to say that we are important because we are smaller in terms of territory. That is why we are more active in the international space, in political and educational projects. We want to do more than others, because we are trying to say that we are important and capable of creating certain things. History textbooks like to emphasize that Lithuania was once large, bigger than France. These are old stereotypes of thinking, that a powerful state is one that has a large territory.

 

– We were a large, warrior state, but today we have difficulty dictating fashion in Europe and the world. What happened? Why did we give up our territories so easily?

 

– V. R.: I think that we did not give up territories calmly. What is important is not the territory itself, but what its size gives. This gives the nucleus the opportunity to grow and develop. If anyone walks back and forth through your land, who falls, then you are an object of other nations and they decide what to do with you. Then you cannot create anything good, because you are a serf. And we were basically the ones who managed ourselves.

 

What happened to us is what happens anywhere today. People give up our identity, thinking that someone else will do it better. This happened when our rulers went to Poland. In my opinion, this fact is not discussed enough. The ruler is good, he creates innovations, power and other things. When the ruler leaves, values ​​are created elsewhere. Over time, Poland clearly became the main, titular nation. It so happened that Poland began to call us its province. A transformation of identity took place.

 

– Could it be that due to the influence of serfdom, we still want strong-arm politics today? Is this relevant to Lithuanian identity?

 

– M. N.: Yes, it probably had a great influence. It should be clarified how much serfdom had an influence, and how much other social, social and economic processes. A few years ago, Mažvydas Jastramskis’s study “Do We Need a Leader?” was published as a separate book. The book says that, from the people’s point of view, a good president is strict and has his own opinion. Gitanas Nausėda is often accused of being spineless, having no opinion of his own and unable to speak out more firmly. The principle of a firm hand is important for Lithuanians.

 

– If a ruler strikes with his fist and tells people what to do, doesn’t that close the debate?

 

– M. N.: Not necessarily, it is also a question of strategy. Sometimes issues that sensitize society are not raised. For example, the attitude towards people of non-traditional sexual orientation. Both Dalia Grybauskaitė and G. Nausėda avoid these issues because they know that revealing a more pronounced opinion would provoke negative reactions. Attention is focused on issues that do not arouse such great attention. It is convenient for the President to say that the Seimas and the Government must find measures to increase the income of the population. He himself does not need to do anything, and the public hears a signal that the President has spoken out firmly and categorically.

 

– What do Poles think of us? How do we appear to the world?

 

– V. R.: Poles have the image that Lithuanians were once normal people, normal Poles, but something happened to them, the Germans, Russians or Bolsheviks reeducated them and now they are in no way returning to the path of virtue. This is the official line that the Poles have. In any government institution, morals will be deducted for the schools of the Trakai district. This is obviously staged and controlled from one center.

 

– Did we bow our heads to the Poles out of fear that they would get angry and we would no longer have any connection with them?

 

– V. R.: No, this is simply a lack of knowledge of the Poles. Internally, they are a very competitive nation, accustomed to respecting others according to their strength. They really compete. You need to be both strong and friendly and notice, evaluate, praise. Understanding the Polish way of thinking helps Lithuanians a lot. Ambassadors who know how to take such a position achieve a lot. If you are your own person, you have to behave the way they behave internally, according to their concept.

 

– What have you heard about Lithuanians during your travels?

 

– M. N.: It depends on who you communicate with. People at conferences try to identify Lithuania through certain people from Lithuania whom they know or remember from their stay in Lithuania, what they liked there.

 

I remember an internship in Krakow during my undergraduate studies. In Vilnius, it was popular among history students to joke about whose Vilnius is. We also made fun of local Poles. However, when we asked this question to Krakow students, they did not understand the context. We explained it to them, but they said that our jokes were not very funny.

 

The attitude towards Lithuanians is good. I have not identified any exceptional things that foreign partners would broadcast about Lithuania, but maybe there are some. I feel that partners from Western countries want to work with us. It’s not like it was 10-15 years ago, when we had to ask to be accepted to carry out joint projects. Of course, there are certain phenomena and symbols that foreigners associate with Lithuania. Although basketball is not winning these days, it is associated with Lithuania in a significant part of the world. People don’t necessarily know what Lithuania is, but they know Arvydas Sabonis. It’s quite interesting. We have popularized a kind of brand.”